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-   -   Giant Mushrooms are a Rip-off (http://forum.sfgame.us/showthread.php?t=4945)

Darstard 11-13-2011 03:15 PM

From what I've seen, the giant mushrooms could potentially change the outcome of some battles (I originally thought they might be game changers), but the reality has shown things differently. Based on recent combat experience, they're a bit of a lark. The animation is fun, and that's the biggest kick-back. They haven't actually influenced any battle we've been in since their release. As such, neither we, nor our opponents use them with any regularity.
We're not being forced to play any way and have chosen to play the way we were playing before.

blackhatnot 11-14-2011 04:29 AM

The mushrooms won't change the way players play the game if:

1) They are in a guild with 40+ members, attacking guilds with 40+ members.
2) They are in a guild without mushroom donations, and thus their guild (generally) only attacks guild in similar situations

However, if you are a player that chooses to be in a guild with a few very high-leveled players, your competitive edge will be decreased significantly.

I like the fact that they are coming up with ways to spend mushrooms as a guild, but the catapults weren't very well planned, IMO.

DominicS 11-14-2011 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackhatnot (Post 36447)
The mushrooms won't change the way players play the game if:

1) They are in a guild with 40+ members, attacking guilds with 40+ members.
2) They are in a guild without mushroom donations, and thus their guild (generally) only attacks guild in similar situations

However, if you are a player that chooses to be in a guild with a few very high-leveled players, your competitive edge will be decreased significantly.

I like the fact that they are coming up with ways to spend mushrooms as a guild, but the catapults weren't very well planned, IMO.


I liked your post, that is why I "thanked" it, but I don't know how accurate your assessment is of the way guilds choose who they attack. At least in our guild, we go by cost first, then the level of the players in the guild.

For instance, we bring in about 5k in donations per day (not a lot of active players), so when we attack a guild, we try and keep the cost to attack them UNDER that 5k, as we are still saving up for our next guild dungeon.

If they fit that criteria, then we see the level of players. For instance, our highest ranked player is ~ level 113, so we won't be trying any guild with a player that is ~ level 198. That being said, if our 20 man guild sees a 40 man guild with the highest level player being 89, we will attack. Conversely, if we see a 3 man guild with players that are 68, 70, 125, we probably will attack them because we might have a chance of gang tackling the 125.

The fact that a guild might or might not be a mushroom donating guild never figures into our....figuring. :D

GRANTED: We are NOT a high level guild. We bounce from between rank 40 to 60 on our server. So maybe that's how they do things up there.

I do agree with you that I like the fact that Playa is trying to come up with a way to spend the mushrooms, but I still think it is widening the gap between the have and the have nots, while not really making the top tier more competitive.

My two cents. :gold::gold:;)

iTZKooPA 11-14-2011 08:42 AM

Some good points on this new feature but keep the criticism constructive and then I can do something with it. It is still being evaluated and may change in the future based on customer feedback.

blackhatnot 11-14-2011 08:51 AM

My second situation is a little bit vague. What I originally meant by guilds with no mushroom donations was guilds that don't even spend mushrooms increasing their experience and gold bonuses. As a result, they are most likely not very high up in the Hall of Fame, and are surrounded by guilds in similar situations - guilds that don't have the spare mushrooms to throw at other guilds. If that is the case, then the addition of mushroom catapults have no impact on their gameplay whatsoever.


And you make an excellent point, the difference between shroomers and non-shroomers is quite large. Balancing this is understandably extremely difficult, though. Shroomers are the company's income, so they are entitled to certain benefits. But how large these benefits should be is hard to say. I personally believe that everyone should be given the option of spending 300 thirst a day; shroomers should just get the added benefit of more flexibility with gear (if they are willing to shuffle the item shops), more arena attacks, and no dungeon lockout times. In short, shroomers get bonuses that merely complement questing rather than allowing players to have triple the amount of thirst for quests.

But I digress :)

Darstard 11-14-2011 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTZKooPA (Post 36458)
Some good points on this new feature but keep the criticism constructive and then I can do something with it. It is still being evaluated and may change in the future based on customer feedback.

A few ideas:
To make the weapon more effective for big guilds and less effective against small guilds (defined by player count).
More ammo / less cost. Flip the 3/5 ratio, so you can load 5 giant mushrooms for 3 mushrooms each. BUT create a stronger tie between the catapult and an attack/defense. Right now you can load your catapult while at complete peace. You should only be able to load the catapult for a declared attack or defense and the max ammo should be tied to the # of players in the opposing guild.
Example:
< 3 members = 0 mushrooms
3-9 - 1 mushroom
10 - 19 = 2 mushroom max
20-29 = 3
30-39 = 4
40-50 = 5

Here's the pseudo reality game logic for this concept: The smaller the army, the faster, more mobile it is. Catapults are not precision weapons and would never be used against a handful of opponents. They require a slower moving body to be fired at for effectiveness.

This type of change would transform the catapult from an expensive lark to a strategic weapon. Less powerful guilds could conceivably defeat a more powerful guild using the weapon. However this also means it would push this much closer into the "they might use it, so I have to use it" strategy camp. So in the end, I'm not sure I like my own idea. Hopefully someone else can run with this in a better direction or kill it.

ToscanToss 11-14-2011 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darstard (Post 36461)
A few ideas:
To make the weapon more effective for big guilds and less effective against small guilds (defined by player count).
More ammo / less cost. Flip the 3/5 ratio, so you can load 5 giant mushrooms for 3 mushrooms each. BUT create a stronger tie between the catapult and an attack/defense. Right now you can load your catapult while at complete peace. You should only be able to load the catapult for a declared attack or defense and the max ammo should be tied to the # of players in the opposing guild.
Example:
< 3 members = 0 mushrooms
3-9 - 1 mushroom
10 - 19 = 2 mushroom max
20-29 = 3
30-39 = 4
40-50 = 5

Here's the pseudo reality game logic for this concept: The smaller the army, the faster, more mobile it is. Catapults are not precision weapons and would never be used against a handful of opponents. They require a slower moving body to be fired at for effectiveness.

Darstard, you ate the mushrooms, didn't you?... :)

Don't baulk yet, I'm not finished, and that was me kidding, while this next bit is me being very serious, and seriously impressed (self-facepalm included on my part):

them mushies, they made you into a strategic genius possessing faultless logic, shaving yourself with Occam's razor, and cutting through the nonsense like Alex through the Gordian knot...

(How many game developers does it take to screw in a light bulb?... *groan* Ugh...)

Well, there are signs that intelligent they are n... never mind.

("Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life down here.")

They couldn't think of this themselves, or couldn't be bothered (no real surprise there on my part) - now let's see if they (can) listen to our CoMa, should you, Koopa, decide to pass this on.

(I'll not be holding my breath, but that's just cos I need to breathe even this scrubbed, recirculated orbital air in order to survive, cannot afford to wait for Playa before I next inhale... :))

Ah, one more thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darstard (Post 36461)
Less powerful guilds could conceivably defeat a more powerful guild using the weapon. However this also means it would push this much closer into the "they might use it, so I have to use it" strategy camp. So in the end, I'm not sure I like my own idea. Hopefully someone else can run with this in a better direction or kill it.

Nope, sorry. None better, and there'll be no killin' old lad, least not t'day... :) (That'll learn ya to have any more bright ideas and air them!... ;))
And following your historically and strategically inspired logic (maybe not, just piggy-backing or shamelessly abusing it :)) - the 300 Lacaedemonians did, supposedly, hold back Xerxes' horde, so... if that is even conceivable in the meat world, a game fantasy can surely allow for it, given some propitious circumstances, tactics, and strategies. (The gods of Olympos willing, course...)

blackhatnot 11-14-2011 06:39 PM

I like the idea, Darstard.

To expand upon it:
Instead of having the game determine how many mushrooms you can throw depending on the amount of members of your guild, let the players have the choice of upgrading the amount of mushrooms available.

So starting guilds don't have the option of firing the catapult. In order to do they, they must buy upgrades, much like the way guilds upgrade their Treasure, Instructor, and Fortress bonuses.

I also agree with Darstard's idea of limiting the amount of shots you have based on the other guild's member count. So, guilds must spend gold to have the OPTION of being able to fire 5 shots on large guilds, but against smaller guilds they are limited. Again, turn the whole catapult idea into a sort of investment. And since it's an investment, once players have invested a considerable sum of money into it, have it be more accurate. Say, divide the other guild's roster into parts of 10 players, sorted by level. For every part, 1 mushroom is fired. So if a guild shoots 5 mushrooms, a few of the higher level members of the opposing guild is guaranteed to be hit. Less RNG, less complaining when their invested mushrooms all land on the lowest level players of the other guild.

Since it costs mushrooms to unlock the feature, the actual loading of the catapults shouldn't cost as much. I think it should be like an investment. If a guild wants this feature, then they must be willing to sink mushrooms into it (maybe have the unlock costs relatively high - say, 100 mushrooms each additional shot, capped at 5). Then, 3 mushrooms per shot, like Darstard says.

I also like the whole precision concept. Maybe give the catapults a chance to actually MISS, when fired upon smaller guilds? Kinda like a luck-based mechanism, where if a guild has 40-50 players, chance of hit is 100%; 30-40 players, 90%; all the way down to if a guild as 1-10 players, chance of hit is 70%.

When the feature first started out, I thought it would be more for defensive purposes. I felt that if such an advantage could only be used for self-defense, there would be less abuse. Like small guilds with high level players getting picked on by previously insignificant large-scale guilds with low level players.

So lesser guilds can still defeat more powerful guilds, but only when the powerful guild decides they want to bully the lesser guilds a little bit :)

Finally, if guilds get fed up that their catapults are missing against smaller guilds per my "accuracy depending on opposing guild's member count" idea, guilds may have the option to upgrade the catapult's accuracy. Another mushroom sink! But not nearly completely useless!

And with that, I have exhausted all my catapult-improving ideas. Thoughts?

ToscanToss 11-14-2011 10:24 PM

Only one quick note, hanging on to Darstard's pseudo- (never mind that, Darstard, nothing ;pseudo-' about it... maybe 'virtual') reality: incoming catapult giant missiles can be seen hundreds of metres away, and a handful of people can clear out of its path at a brisk walking pace...

A 70% hit probability is still a cheap cop-out - this thing ain't carpet-bombing with napalm... And then with and option to improve precision? We're back to square one, same balancing issue...

I mean, c'mon!... overwhelming odds, outnumbering your adversary 10:1, 20:1, 25:1, even 50:1 is not enough??? Pffft... No comment... :)

Darstard's originally suggested limiting values seem much more balanced - it should take at least some effort and combat to conduct a raid.

(Crikey... even with laser-guided, homing, heat-seeking, or bunker buster missiles, a small cell cannot be eliminated! How can a big dumb mushroom do what those can't?! You tie your opponents down before you strike, then take a dozen practice shots? You need some rope?! :D Maybe you expect us to give you the rope as well, with which to tie us up, cos you forgot to bring it? :lol:
Kidding, but you get my point - it's a bit silly, and pointless, and unbalancing, and, as Darstard now pointed it out, unrealistic, this big silly mushroom thingy, as it is now...)

Other than that, there are some alternative thoughts that could be considered (prerequisites for obtaining a catapult, upfront investment) and these two existing blueprints, Darstard's and Blackhatnot's, combined for an improved, refined, fine-tuned feature.

nNelg 11-16-2011 02:12 PM

Well, here is another complaint on this crappy feature:
I had 1 attacker get hit by 2 mushrooms, once for each person the attacker engaged on our side. That makes it even more lame - a low-level getting hit by 2 mushrooms.

Our last battle - the 3 lowest players got hit. So I do not know how the random gods are invoked but they are definitely frowning on our guild's use of the catapult. The mushrooms are used long before any high level players get involved.


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