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-   -   Gear Strategy: More Than One Weapon (http://forum.sfgame.us/showthread.php?t=884)

BlueDude2 06-04-2010 04:44 PM

Gear Strategy: More Than One Weapon
 
I recently did a little number crunching in response to a decision I don't want to make.

On the one hand, I have a lovely weapon that is very versatile (+ALL) and is great for warrior on warrior action. On the other hand, I have a 'better' weapon that does significantly more base damage but gives me garbage stats (+Int).

Then it strikes me that it is perhaps notable to have a stockpile of weapons against different builds.

Since strength v. strength (Warrior on warrior) has a significant damage reduction based on primary stat, having added strength may not be as significant in damage increase as base damage, but mitigation by raw stat helps offset some of the base damage lost and further decreases the opponent's multiplier (sometime's significantly) which could be that extra round or two needed to offset the real damage deficiency.

Versus int, obviously having higher int and higher base damage is a good idea against mages.

Versus dex, obviously having higher dex and more hp is a good idea against scouts.

Defensively, having really high luck pushes up a higher crit rating. When attacking players, you may not want to rely on crit, but when you are searching for an opponent on the HoF, doesn't a 40-50% crit kind of make you annoyed at the possibility of losing to a lucky strike? If you think twice, opponent's are also likely to look for someone more reliably soft.

My thought is that obsoleting weapons (selling them) too hastily is not a good thing since there is quite possibly a popular build that the old standby might still stack up against better than your just dropped new hotness.

Regarding armor pieces, this may not ring quite as true. Armor also has armor value associated with it as well as multiple pieces. While some warriors may think it a good idea to pack a five set of +int/low armor (since magic ignores armor anyway) there is of course a diminishing return to carrying that much stuff.

I would like to explore other players' thoughts on the subject as well as hear notes by successful players that have utilized this strategy in one form or another OR even stories of trying this unsuccessfully.

Brys 06-04-2010 10:12 PM

I don't think magic ignores armor. It ignore block and dodge. ^^

To be honest, generally speaking increasing your offensive power is better than your defensive, at least when it comes to stats. Every point increases your damage, whereas only every -2- points increases your defensive potential. Unless the gap is huge (over twice as many dex or int, in your case) I can't really see much advantage in keeping weaker gear around for the +stats against other styles.

This is, of course, influenced based on the fact I'm a fairly low levelled player (Probably going to hit 20 tonight), so at higher levels your mileage may vary.

Renegade 13 06-05-2010 10:15 PM

Definetely hepful. Weapons can have than more than one purpose/stats increase. Seeing that I'm level one at the moment this is definetely helpful. Thabks peoples. You rock!

Akarym 07-13-2010 04:37 PM

I am a player who carries around a lot of weight in his inventory. I have 2 weapons atm. I am relying on high base damage and high crit. My crit is 38% and I could make it higher but I dont think a warrior needs more than 25-35% crits. Having these extra weapon/armor has helped me with HoF and in dungeons. I think it is important to try out different builds. For example sometimes for a warrior it will be ok to have ur def only at 43% but your Con and Str and damage output are high enough to survive this goes for fighting mages and scouts. But sometimes you have to switch up your gear espcially when fighting another warrior ur going to want your def capped at 50% since there are much more rounds and who can survive the longest beating pretty much. You just have to mix and match the best builds.

Edthard 07-14-2010 02:03 PM

Your conclusions are based on ATTACKS...

having a few extra defense and attack patterns on is fine when ATTACKING.
but when OTHERS attack you. I hope you have a good GENERAL setup.

If your BASE stats arent up, then changing around isnt going to help defend you.

BlueDude2 07-14-2010 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12141)
Your conclusions are based on ATTACKS...

having a few extra defense and attack patterns on is fine when ATTACKING.
but when OTHERS attack you. I hope you have a good GENERAL setup.

If your BASE stats arent up, then changing around isnt going to help defend you.

As stated before, luck is great mitigation - as is high armor class, high HP, and high stats (base or equipment does not matter).

One of the advantages of "switching around" is having a Con/Luck 'general' weapon/gear for defense periods while having specialized tools attacks. It's inclusive of both Defense and Attack, though Attack is generally the more obvious of the two.

Akarym 07-15-2010 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12141)
Your conclusions are based on ATTACKS...

having a few extra defense and attack patterns on is fine when ATTACKING.
but when OTHERS attack you. I hope you have a good GENERAL setup.

If your BASE stats arent up, then changing around isnt going to help defend you.

Trust me man, my general stats are just fine, and I am just as good at defending as I am attacking. I don't really get your point in ur comment though?. I mean, switching 2 pieces of gear to up my chances against a certain opponent is not going to throw off my general stats all that much. Just give me the extra con, str, luck, or def I may need to beat an opponent which is a higher level. Then after I may keep the armor on or switch it back.

Darstard 07-15-2010 12:59 PM

I believe his point was that you need to have a general one to use when you're on GD or sleeping. As your opponents sometimes pick YOU, you need to have one setup that can handle any class decently.

Edthard 07-15-2010 02:42 PM

When you ATTACk others, you have a chance to setup you person..
After you are done, you need a GREAT protection. which can be hard.
you dont know WHO/WHAT will be aiming for you.

Fighting Wizards, your HP is going to save you. last long enough to hurt them.

Warriors, Avoidance will save you. you dont want to be hit to much.

Scouts, HIT them hard and fast. make every HIT HURT.

BlueDude2 07-15-2010 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12252)
Warriors, Avoidance will save you. you dont want to be hit to much.

I don't know what this is about.

Only shields actually modify avoidance and after level 15, few warriors have a shield with less than 25% block.

Armor is fairly effective against warriors who already deal the least damage, but good Con also annoys the heck [out of us], because warrior damage doesn't catch up.

In general, Con/Luck weigh a lot more during defense because they put a bad taste on your character name that most players looking for easy farms would rather avoid. To be honest, no matter how low an opponent mage's INT (I'm a warrior), if they have a sufficient number of hit points, I know that they will outpace my damage before I can take 'em, so I move on.

Edthard 07-16-2010 03:32 AM

i AGREE,
but adding abit into Strength, to TAKE away your advantage helps also.
As each round the Damage is increased, 1 good hit from the warrior will smash almost anything,
The Wizard has to Stand there and keep shooting and hitting and HOPE he can get your HP down before ANYONE gets a good hit on HIM. Absorbing alittle damage with Strength can let him last abit longer.

zmacatac 07-16-2010 03:57 AM

i use weapons that hit higher not the ~# but max # and if it gives me int but i rather use a weeker weapon only if the int bonus on it makes me hit higher

BlueDude2 07-16-2010 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12252)
When you ATTACk others, you have a chance to setup you person..
After you are done, you need a GREAT protection. which can be hard.
you dont know WHO/WHAT will be aiming for you.

Fighting Wizards, your HP is going to save you. last long enough to hurt them.

Warriors, Avoidance will save you. you dont want to be hit to much.

Scouts, HIT them hard and fast. make every HIT HURT.

Okay. Now I see what you did there.

You are inverting the triangle without telling us.

To Scouts: When fighting wizards, invest in HP; last long enough to hurt them.

To Warriors: When fighting scouts, investing in Dex will decrease damage taken so battles last long enough to make victory possible.

To...


Okay, never mind. That's not what you were trying to do.

Quote:

i AGREE,
but adding abit into Strength, to TAKE away your advantage helps also.
As each round the Damage is increased, 1 good hit from the warrior will smash almost anything,
The Wizard has to Stand there and keep shooting and hitting and HOPE he can get your HP down before ANYONE gets a good hit on HIM. Absorbing alittle damage with Strength can let him last abit longer.
This, I assume, is advice for... mages?

Alright, Edthard. You entered the conversation mentioning:
Quote:

If your BASE stats arent up, then changing around isnt going to help defend you.
Assuming you are still trying to push the point of having an "everyman" strategy, I'll try to answer it with my general strategy for the game...

In ten days, I'll gain ten levels and no amount of STR/DEX your mage is trying to pound in over that time is going to make a difference to my warrior and my scout friends that are in a whole new tax bracket including more stats by way of phatter city guard and better equips and dungeon drops.

Gear (like +ALL gear) really should be making up the bulk of your class-based defense until City Guard can cover the cost of bumping up the bases on those stats. Making tertiary stats meaningful is mostly useful only to slow-leveling mages (who are better off, because they can actually LOSE tavern quests in addition to arenas). I suppose Scouts also may find it helpful to offset some of their 'randomness' but largely HP covers that base.

I'm really trying to wrap my head around what you are mentioning; however, I see it as problematic.

Looking at it another way:
If I'm a mage that builds up my tertiary stats to offset, if I raise both, I don't deal enough damage to compete with other mages. Also, a sufficiently over-primary-statted warrior or scout busts through my strategy because each point I invest is only 1/2 of a point they invest.

If I'm a mage raising only strength (not dex) to cover my Achilles' Heel and still output major damage to keep the scouts at bay, warrior's will probably just walk past me because it's not worth it, but a high luck or high con scout can still break me down since they have TWICE my HP and aren't as feather-touch damage as warriors.

If I'm a mage raising only dex (not strength) to solidify my victory against scouts, of course I become the favorite chew toy of warriors while scouts which already avoid me simply continue their wise course of action.

On the other hand, a mage that invests in Int/Con/Luk or any combination of those becomes a) HP annoying, damage annoying, crit annoying to warriors b)HP annoying, damage annoying, crit annoying to scouts c) HP annoying, damage annoying, crit annoying, very competitive to other mages.

While it is true that mages have the most to gain from doping stats into tertiaries, every class benefits the most from Primary/Con/Luck in that order, and while equipment is the best (and possibly only) way to keep those stats high, other players in the same class need only a slight edge (26% more primary equals double damage guys...) to get a mirror-class advantage, and also get the most bang for the buck against opponents.

The reason for spare gear is that situationally an extra 10% stat-based damage reduction can put a close battle over the edge.

Reconsidering, however, as I've noticed that with a sufficient number of players, taking more time to find better targets is typically easier (and more economically strategic) than keeping spares around. I still keep spares as the gold from them doesn't translate to alot of stats these days (50% of a point of Con?) but to be honest, I usually don't have to use them because there are so many soft targets that aren't really that close enough in combat to merit the risk.

My new recommendation? If you're character isn't yet over-the-top badass, spare gear may be the strategy for you. If you're character IS an OTP 8@|)4$$, then stay on the course and save your money for that lucky epic one day.

Edthard 07-16-2010 12:56 PM

Thats pretty good.
Keep your basics UP. add AT LEAST 20-25% luck.
Dont worry a bunch about those extra skills, until later.
The problem Iv seen, is..
The Tavern missions the Stats for the NPC's dont match up 1/2 the time.
A fighter with Max Dex or INT?? really makes it interesting.
Then comes the Dungeons. Yes we can see the basic Stats, but NOT all of it. That Tarantula is KILLING ME..I can match/better his stats, but he hits for 20K the first round. And he is DEX heavy. So I cant tell if he is a fighter with GOOD dex, or a Scout with Fair Strength, or a Wizard with protection in Both Str and DEX.

BlueDude2 07-16-2010 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12355)
Thats pretty good.
Keep your basics UP. add AT LEAST 20-25% luck.
Dont worry a bunch about those extra skills, until later.
The problem Iv seen, is..
The Tavern missions the Stats for the NPC's dont match up 1/2 the time.
A fighter with Max Dex or INT?? really makes it interesting.
Then comes the Dungeons. Yes we can see the basic Stats, but NOT all of it. That Tarantula is KILLING ME..I can match/better his stats, but he hits for 20K the first round. And he is DEX heavy. So I cant tell if he is a fighter with GOOD dex, or a Scout with Fair Strength, or a Wizard with protection in Both Str and DEX.

The weapons they use mean nothing. The highest stat on an NPC is their attack stat. Yes, I've seen a 'Suprino' shooting 'magical' arrows from a crossbow and been hit with 'Dexterous' stones from a Hill giant.

If you aren't a mage, the tarantula is probably just getting lucky. Raise con, raise dex, and try try again.

Edthard 07-17-2010 02:32 PM

That spider is getting 20k hits from the start.
He dont have that much LUCK to cause that much damage.
he has to have a great/rare weapon.

Layer 3 = Level 42 Terror Tarantula (Strength: 205 Dexterity: 726 Intelligence: 224 Constitution: 403 Luck: 247) Hit points: 69316

He has the Con of a warrior
Dex of a scout
Luck 5*Luck / enemy lvl *2..would give him 17.1%.
Str dont show he is a warrior, and couldnt hit me HARD if it was based on STR. His dex is high enough, but I cant see HOW he gets that much damage. weapon damage*(1+dex/10), Crit on first attack 20K make it 10k.
Weapon damage*72.7=10k?? 138? hmmm??? NICE weapon.

and my luck to him is 21%
My dex is 44 points below his..
and Im 6 lvl Lower..

I will get him..eventually. but his numbers dont Quite add up.

Fairie 07-17-2010 09:16 PM

I don't think the monsters are supposed to be equatable to fighting another player or even pidgeon-holed in to classes. They're their own thing so their stats are kinda all over the place. Just my opinion anyway.

BlueDude2 07-18-2010 01:23 AM

Actually, friends, he is indeed a Dex NPC as pointed out before.

Level 42 Terror Tarantula (Strength: 205 Dexterity: 726 Intelligence: 224 Constitution: 403 Luck: 247) Hit points: 69316

403*4*43 = 69316, you can check that on a calculator.

Him doing high damage is LIKELY a result of you're character needing MORE ARMOR and MORE DEX which are the only ways to reduce damage. You can't measure crit on an npc because, as an Internet meme eloquently puts it, "The RNG hates you." If a monster has a 1% crit, it will still crit you at the worst possible time 1 in 100 times or 3 in 300 times, and you'll only see 1 of those 297 other times.

A guide on these forums recommends buffing the defense stat until you beat that dungeon critter. This same guide also recommends that you slow down your leveling. I suggest differently. There is no shame in being 4 levels over the dungeon monster before you beat it. You don't get an equipment penalty (it always calculates the lower level between the two) and the crit mitigation and overcoming their hidden armor stat and bonus HP are always appreciated in a game where a streak of bad luck can murder you.

Keeping with the topic, though, and not making this all about your situ; consider that with a few more points of that defensive stat on some cheap gear one day in the weapon shop can actually PROFIT you if it helps you beat it. Dex gear tends to be cheaper to warriors and mages, at least in my experience. Buying one or two pieces that I can sell right back after might put me over the edge to winning the dungeon battle, bagging that phat exp and the phat gold loot at a very nominal gold loss in comparison to the winnings.

Fairie 07-18-2010 09:21 AM

So far I've been getting Epics that give a bonus to all my stats, and that's great over all but as a warrior I need my strength to be as high as possible. So when I see items in the shop that give me a better boost to my main stats I really have to think 'does this boost make up for the drop in everything else?' So if I keep extra gear I can keep myself competitive and balanced over all when I need it, ^_^ and not sell my pretty epics but that's another matter.

Edthard 07-18-2010 01:11 PM

Blue,
and I mentioned Im a Scout?
He is knocking me out in 3-4 hits..
Iv got 63000HP
And dex at 685..
weapon 58-106..
Either he is getting Major HITS all the time,
or he has a GREAT weapon..as CRITS are at 20K in the FIRST ROUND.

but I beat him...He didnt CRIT me..Finally.

BlueDude2 07-18-2010 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12536)
Blue,
and I mentioned Im a Scout?

Ah, I wish I had known that sooner. This is crucial piece of information.

Quote:

Iv got 63000HP
And dex at 685..
weapon 58-106..
Problems outlined in RED. Against an opponent of the same type, you should have a higher primary stat. The reason for this is damage is scaled
(Your stat - half of their stat + 10) * Weapon Base Damage.


Quote:

but I beat him...He didnt CRIT me..Finally.
Congratulations. Scout vs scout is the most random of all matchups (both have 50% evade against each other). Worse upsets have happened.

The lesson here is that you're gear needs to be MORE Dex heavy and you need to invest in HIGHER damage base weapon (I think my warrior had a better base than your scout at that level). Also, you need to invest more gold in your primary stat(s) than you have currently if a dungeon creep out powers you in raw stats.

Recommended: Do a lot more city guard and stop pumping the garbage stats. The reason for this thread is to specify that GEAR, being so much more cost effective for individual battles than permanent stats, can be a solid way to cover one's deficiencies for situational combat. If you're defense stats (strength and intelligence, in your case) are low, they should be because each point of Dex, Con, or even Luck is worth 3-4 times more in the short AND long runs of your character. However, if you get a +STR Bow on a quest, you might be able to save it to help yourself with STR dungeon monsters, while switching back to your +Dex +Con Bow for everything else.

EDIT:
If two members of the same class are in combat, remember that 26% difference between them means that the higher party has DOUBLE the multiplier of the lower party. This means that even if base damage is even, the higher party is dealing double damage. This is crucially important in honor battles. While a warrior with inferior Strength may be able to crank out battles against mages with HP alone, he will be dragged back down by warriors with 60% his HP and 126% his strength. You need double Con (most other things being equal) to break even with a mirror class opponent with 26% more STR. That gets expensive in terms of stats. Which is why primary stat is primary.

Beanhead III 07-18-2010 04:20 PM

AWESOME INFO!!!
 
I read your thread and this is some awesome info! May I take it back to my guild and share(Quote) you on what you shared?

Edthard 07-18-2010 08:22 PM

Blue,
If you look at my character, I have almost ALL my hardware giving dex.
I havent seen a Better weapon. IF I change my weapon, I loose 100+ dex.

Every weapon I see in the shop, and as bonus in battle, NEVER have dex, in my last 3-4 levels..
Starting to think about using hardware to defend against STR and INT, and using all my points in DEX/CON/LUCK..

I win over 50% of my battle on human players that attack me. And am defeating the dungeons, 4-6 levels LOWER then the dungeon level. I think iv got a good build so far. Just need better hardware.

BlueDude2 07-18-2010 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12582)
Blue,
If you look at my character, I have almost ALL my hardware giving dex.
I havent seen a Better weapon. IF I change my weapon, I loose 100+ dex.

Every weapon I see in the shop, and as bonus in battle, NEVER have dex, in my last 3-4 levels..

I don't have your character name so no, I haven't checked.

As for weapons in shop and bonus in battle, base damage > Dex, particularly before level 50. Getting that magical weapon that makes all of your problems go away would be nice, but it ain't easy to come by. Do the damage calculation and determine if maybe a con weapon would better serve your purposes.

If you can't find a better weapon, try leveling up. However, given your bad luck, I would just as soon start flipping through shop pages with mushrooms. My s2 mage appropriately has had a Luck Staff and a Con Staff because (1) the stats were humongous and (2) the base damage makes all the difference in damage dealing.

Tell you what, PM me your IGN, and I'll be happy to see what's going on. In my experience, if you are putting phat gold into your primary AND all your gear is primary, there should be no reason that a dungeon creep should be outpacing you at your own game by 100 points.

Alternate gear implies that you have multiple choices at your disposal. In your case, you may have an issue finding even a primary weapon, which is a different issue entirely.

Edthard 07-19-2010 01:20 AM

Im doing pretty good..
But Im watching for better Hardware.

lvl 37 and a 106 weapon?
I think its waiting to give me a better item.

BlueDude2 07-19-2010 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edthard (Post 12643)
Im doing pretty good..
But Im watching for better Hardware.

lvl 37 and a 106 weapon?
I think its waiting to give me a better item.

Actually, what you have is an ~82 weapon.

Others in your area have as high as ~100.

And I quote: ~100, ~88, ~92

Your weapon with full dex is equivalent to a ~96 base weapon with no Dex. A weapon with less dex requires more complicated math, but sincerely this points out two things.

1. your nonweapon gear needs to pull more of its weight. Your base is great, but your +Dex gear needs to be increased overall. Right now, your weapon carries 14.x% of your dex, which means trading it out is not an option.

2. You need to consider base damage for the interim. In this case, anything ~96 and up pretty much does it for you. If your non-weapon gear had more dex, you could probably get away with even a ~92 or ~88 weapon.

Basically, this thread does not apply because your character is not yet built to specifications. On the other hand, as a matter of pacing, it's not a bad thing. My warrior had an armor class of about 15% up to level 30 and still did alright (mages don't care about armor anyway). Patience, and I'm sure you will get a better weapon.

I recommend you crunch some numbers the next time a weapon drops for you. Remember, ~96 is a sure swap, and if it has +Dex, don't be afraid to whip out the 'ole graphing calculator.

As for backup weapons, I would never sacrifice more than 10% of my damage for 5% in stat defense (which is what a pure defense stat weapon provides versus a comparable opponent around level 60). Warriors (like mine) don't rely on damage though. For mages, this number can be even more complex as every point of con/luck also matters when keeping a backup weapon.

Edthard 07-19-2010 01:00 PM

The draw back I have is my Gear is adding 250 dex to my DEX.
Each piece is around 30-50 dex..
so dropping a piece is very Valuable..
Im building my defense, on Int/str up to about 300 with spare points.
Im pushing alittle hard as I bought the dragon..
NOW Its time to slow down and build.
Wait for better hardware, or convert it to Defense rather then offense.
most of the stuff coming up is all STR/INT.
as soon as I start to convert, and spend money, it will change again.

PoohBear 07-20-2010 08:56 AM

I keep spare gear for one reason: "banking". I keep up to 3 things just to have stuff to sell if I find something I want to buy. (Just a way to have money to me that can't be stolen.)


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